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tv   The Dylan Ratigan Show  MSNBC  July 11, 2011 4:00pm-5:00pm EDT

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before that meeting today the president still holding the line for the largest possible vote for the theatrical universe is convinced a smaller one would be hard to push through congress as the larger ones especially with the elections approaching and says, why not? >> might as well do it now. pull off the band-aid. eat our peas. if not now, when? i'm prepared to take on significant heat from my party to get something done. i have bent over backwards to work with the republicans. i do not see a path to a deal if they don't budge, period. >> of course, that's tough talk from a man that subsidizes the banking system by the trillions. of course, did back door deals with the drug companies, and of course, an energy system that raised two-thirds of its energy, but he's a tough guy. what about the opponent? speaker boehner? how does he feel? >> the president is in
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re-election mode, and as a result that's where a lot of this rhetoric comes from. i've told the president and i've asked him, i've said, let's forget about the next election. you forget about yours and i'll forget about mine and let's get serious about doing the right thing for the country. >> ah, if only we could do something right for the country, like address the underlined flawed political system. it's relationships with giants, businesses and total dependency on industrys for funding, dictate policies, control pricing. we find ourselves in the same old position with the deficit down the road until we address the corrupt nature of our health care system. the inefficient and wasteful and corrupt nature of our energy system or the hopefully dysfunctional nature of our banking system and trade agreements, both of which extract trillions from our country every year. and then let's talk about the august 2nd paper tiger deadline. the treasury. just look at the yield, the cost of borrowing money for america.
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oh, my goodness. what would you pay on your credit card? 2.92%? maybe on a home loan. rates are down. oh, no. 2.92%. that's a pretty low risk loan, wouldn't you say? so if our nation was truly at risk of defaulting in armageddon, unable to pay our bills, the end of the world, well, then, really. would the yield on the ten-year bond be 2.92%? let's get right to the washington side of things and nbc at the white house. >> reporter: hi there, dylan. that meeting with president obama and congressional leaders you mentioned just wrapped up. we're hoping that the congressional leaders will come out and talk to us and let us know exactly what happened in the meeting. one important point. the meeting lasted about an hour and a half. a little longer. that's about the same length that the past two meetings have lasted. three meetings they have had
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since last thursday and they still haven't been able to really make much progress towards getting a deal done. so we'll have to see if anything big came out of this meeting. what we can tell you is the backdrop is dwindling hope for getting a big deal done. as you said, president obama was pushing for a big deal, especially at the end of last week. somewhere in the neighborhood of $4 trillion in deficit reductions over the next ten year. it looked like at the end of last week, at least, speaker boehner was trying to get on that same page. it would have involved coming to the table over entitlement reforms, ib vochled republicans coming to the table over rolling back tax credits for wealthy americans and big corporation, but then over the weekend, speaker bain boehner wouldn't be able to support a big deal. they are discussing as you said a deal half the size. somewhere in the neighborhood of $2 trillion to $3 trillion in cuts. we expect eric cantor to have come to this meeting with their proposal. we expect that's what they were
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discussing during this meeting. we'll let you know exactly what happened once we find out. the president earlier today in his remarks calling on everyone to take on their sacred cows including democrats. saying that they have to come to the table over social security and medicare. here's what he had to say about social security. take a listen. >> the reason to do social security is to strengthen social security and make sure that those benefits are there for seen years. if you're taking a bunch of tough votes, might as well do it now. >> reporter: and dylan, we can tell you it seems the one thing all sides agree on here, that they do want to get a deal done soon. they say they are going to keep meeting every day until that happens. dylan? >> all right. thank you very much. and bernie sanders serves on the budget committee. he's called deals that hurts those who can least afford it a piece of crap. i completely agree. the absurdity of watching deals with political representation
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prove what's a bunch of cowards so many of our leaders are revealing themselves to be. senator what, if anything, do you feel you could use help with to fight some of this? >> look, dylan, the issue is not whether it's a big deal or a smaller deal. the issue is whether it is a fair deal, and equitable deal. the middle class today is disappearing. poverty is increasing. people on top are doing phenomenally well and their tax rates are the lowest in 50 years. corporations are making huge profits and many of them are paying nothing in taxes. so what you want to do is say, yeah. let's do deficit reduction, but at least half of that reduction has got to come from the people on top who are doing very, very well. we've got to take a hard look at military spending. people in this country appropriately, sick and tired of two wars, which continue to go on and on. we've tripled military spending since 1997. and then let's also take a look at every agency of government and see where we get rid of the wafrt and the bureaucracy.
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if do you that, you can come up with $4 trillion in deficit reduction. that's a big deal over ten years, and you don't have to throw children off of medicaid. y don't have to do away with medicare as we know it. you don't have to divide the american dream. the family whose want to send their kids to college. >> there are so many people out there that on some level share your view. particularly the absurdity of targeting those without political representation, the elderly, the young, the poor, to pay for any of this, when we've subsidized the banking system. the health care system is what it is, won't get into the detailsandetail s go on and on on all day. anything way to protect the ones who are taking it on the chin here? >> look, you make a very good point. three years ago the american people against my vote bailed out the crooks on wall street who caused this recession. now these guys on wall street
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are doing in a nom neale well, banking profits are strong. don't you think maybe, maybe, maybe, we might want to ask wall street to help us out with deficit reduction? republicans, of course, say absolutely no. they don't want the wealthy to pay one nickel more for deficit reduction. what we want, i would like to see the president stand strong. do whatever says that the american people want done, and that is shared sacrifice. not just balancing the budget on the weak and vulnerable, and as you indicate, people who don't have, all kinds of lobbyists here in washington, d.c. >> is it too cynical to sit in a chair like mine or somebody who watches and hear extraordinarily rational thoughts from rational people, yourself and others saying why wouldn't you solve this -- it's crazy. no rational person in their own home would solve a problem like this, which leads you to think, well is the reason they're
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behaving, they, the political structure, behaving the way they are, because they are so independent on raising money, 40% of money comes from the banking system. a huge percentage comes from health care and energy, and as long as the politicians, democrat and republican, are so dependent on these very small, very wealthy groups to get money to keep their jobs, you can't do a fair deal? is that true, senator? >> no. that is not cynical at all. i mean, interest through campaign contributions, and through lobbyists have an enormous influence in terps of what's going on. let me give you social security as an example. every poll that's out there says two things. yes, the rich should pay more in taxes to help with the deficit reduction. no, we should not cut back on social security and medicare. when obama ran for president in
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2008 he said, hey, john mccain wants to cut social security. i'm not going to do it. suddenly the president has reversed his position. so i think the point is, yes, of course. the wealthy and powerful have a huge influence over what goes on here including this debate on capitol hill. >> is it wrong to take that the next step? trying to get to, having been so emotional about this myself for year, just to try have a practical view of what's going on here. if -- unless we deal with the undo influence of those six industries, is that not like walking into an alcoholic's home listening to his problems with his children, with his wife and his problems with his job and listen, until you stop drinking, sir, you are not going to have a healthy marriage. you are not going to have a happy family and is no that appropriate to america until we stop drinking from that dependence on money we'll never get a real debate or a real structural anything? >> i think, dylan, that's a very
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good point up to me. in this country, 400 individuals who own more wealth than the bottom 150 million american. so you have an incredible concentration of wealth and ownership of the people on top. you have a lot of those people having enormous influence over the media, over both political parties. you have six banks that own over half of the assets of our gdp. so unless we begin dealing with those issues and moving away from the kind of society that we're moving towards, you're going to continue to have the bulk indicating what goes on here in washington. >> your persistence and effectiveness in fighting for basic justice and decency as one of the few i would say in this country as a politician is seen incredibly admirable. i suspect a further reason why
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you've lost some hair and have the gray ones you do, sir. >> maybe. thank you very much. >> listen, talk to you next time. bernie sanders with us out of washington. up next here, politics versus progress. how can we ever truly deal with our debt when we have leaders who spend more time fighting with each other and fighting to raise money than they do fighting for any real debate about fairness or investment in america. plus, uncle sam. he's your sugar daddy. wait until you hear how much of american's hard-earned cash is coming directsly from the government and why that now is in jeopardy, and, anyway, i could do a whole speech about that but i won't. and paying for equality. bypassing washington. local government stepping in where the federal government simply can't or won't. for dentists, the choice is clear. fact is, more dental professionals brush
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whether the leaders can get together, solve big problems or just kick the can. it's about our political system. not being willing or able seemingly to take on big tasks. >> hallelujah! sounds like the white house has been watching the show. we do need a much more robust debate about the political structure and it's relationship with giant business in this country and for that matter all sorts of special interests. our monday mega panel at the helm, senior political columnist for the washington examiner, friend of the summer, tim
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carney. and a friend of every season i do believe. msnbc contributor and of course washington post editorial writer and voice of reason in a town that lacks for it, i am referring to washington, d.c. our friend jonathan kayhart. and a referendum on our political system. can it reform itself in a way that allows to to have the debate it needs to have about banking, energy, health care and down the line, jonathan. can it? >> you know, i really want to hope so. but, you know, being here in this town and watching the debate over the last few months, particularly over the weekend when speaker boehner said that, you know, we can't go along with this big plan, you know, i am becoming even more pessimistic about the prospects for august 2nd than before. >> ah, i mean, kick the can down the road so many times too often over the years punting the hard
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decisions that need to be made for so long. we're running out of road. we have mastered. >> mastered, tim carney, the art of kicking the can down the road. you can see, short-term debt on the debt ceiling move the date to the end of the year. >> what's the political incentive? to do a long-term solution. one of my beats in washington is covering lobbyists. both parties talk about wanteding to reform the taxes. we don't want special tax break, because special tax rates don't go to go schmo but to special interests. the lobbyists all have incentive to perpetuate the system. and corporate jets get depreciated over several years, that's not picking the right target. >> the answer to the question whether to solve the problem thus far is obviously, no. because we have a crisis in front of us for two years, and an economic crisis and haven't come close to solving it. i wonder all of this time that the president is spending, all
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the time congressional leaders are spending on debt ceiling negotiations, if they'd spent that much time on the economy and that much focus on jobs maybe we would be -- >> what about the conversation i was just having with bernie sanders. the obvious reason why we don't get the structural debate around banks, around health care, around energy, is that the very politicians who would engage in that debate are entirely dependent on those incumbent industries in their current structure to get money and so you can't get a real debate as long as both political parties are dependent on these groups -- >> sure. you know, right, dylan. that's absolutely right but another element here that we haven't talked about, and that's the tea party 87. you have people now in the house who couldn't care less about, you know, raising the debt ceiling, the economic catastrophe that would befall this country if a plan were put forth that had any kind of revenue generation or tax
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increases, they want all spending cuts and that's why speaker boehner is someone who you can see really wants to make a deal and is trying to get one, had to pull away, because he's got this raucous caucus he has to deal with and unfortunately it looks like folks are measuring drapes in the speaker's office rather than figures what's going to happen to this country on august 3rd if that debt creeling ing ceiling. >> chuck schumer conducted, you can't do this to boehner. >> they've been writing about this since march. >> i know. maybe you can -- >> maybe you convince the democrats to start doing this. boehner is a conservative. but boehner as opposed to the tea party people, is a little more cozy with the special interest you're talking about. >> saying he's a little more of a company man -- >> yes. if anybody was actually going to take on the special interests it would be the people elected on
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the idea of actually trimming government for the sake of trimming government. the problem with actual limited government philosophy is that there's no one special interest that benefits from it. if you give a tax credit to this guy he benefits. a subsidy to this guy he benefits. so the special interests idea, getting rid of those, the tea party is actually the only people that are going to do this. >> the crazy thing, special interests are determining entire debate because the american public has this entire debt ceiling because they want to know about jobs. how are we getting jobs? where are the ideas? why aren't the party talking about them and neither party is talking about this eschew and they're missing, an absolute disconnect even more than usual in washington. >> and jonathan, doesn't that go to show how incredibly powerful those interests, you have the entire democratic leadership avoiding talking about true structural -- the entire republican leadership avoiding true structural reform?
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no evidence in the presidential debate that we're going to get the structure debate and we're desperate to have jo i don't know the answer, right, but coming on here a few years saying, listen, the you have crew screwed up structure. health care doesn't get spent on health care. spend two-thirds of energy wasting it. no one wants to talk than? what are we doing here? >> the president's press conference in the briefing room today, he kept saying over and over again, we have to get this done so we can move on and start looking at other big issues. not to say they are minor, but job creation. look, if they don't raise the debt ceiling all this talk about what's happening to create jobs will be moot, because the crisis that would befall the country would be so catastrophic that you'll be once again back to september of 2008 trying to hold the economy together. >> true. and the date is made up, but the amount of debt we have is a real issue that has to be addressed. >> right. >> and dylan, the question i
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ask, why keep pivieding the jobs? why aren't we operating there? >> and it comes back to, and this is probably the point where you and i would most disagree, because your argument, as well articulated and you could be right. obviously, in your mind for sure. in in my mind i'm sure. but you're big versus small government. make is smaller, gets easier -- i say a small government is just as bad as a big government, and that the issue is bought verse not bought, not in size. >> the problem is, what is the power of these lobbyists? they're holding a lever. the size of the lever is proportionate from the size of the government. >> okay. >> in a free market -- >> you don't have a -- >> i have never given my money to -- >> free market in the business -- >> no. we're not talking republicans versus democrat. free market versus big government. i have never given my money to goldman sachs of my oh volition. i've given lots of money to goldman sachs because of what
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tim geithner and ben bernanke said. >> i agree. >> the lobbyist and anti-tax -- in bed with each other. in bed with more washington lobbyists nan anyone else on the planet. how do you separate those two people? >> because the lobbyists want a complex tax code. conservatives want a simple low tax code. overtaxed, bring him on here. i want a simple -- >> what do you say -- of the complexity crowd, which is the banking, tax code crowd, the rett of it, can conservative leadership and for that matter we'll come back to that -- >> these industries don't want to pay taxes and people like grover will help the system -- >> they hide inside that rhetoric as way to, as a tax dodge. do you agree? your rhetoric can be exploited by human individuals and the tax code? >> that big business is looking for subsidies found an easier way to get the subsidies if in the form of tax credit. >> right. the whole gang stays. jonathan in d.c. coming up with
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this is a very tough economy and for a lot of people it's going to feel very hard. harder than anything they've experienced in their lifetime for some time to come. >> treasury secretary tim geithner telling us the recovery will be harder and longer than anyone expected. the result, of course, of policies put in place by -- tim geithner.
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the latest dose of bad news comes as we learned nearly $2 out of every $10 that went into america's poshgts came not from production or collaboration but from the government. that, according to an analysis by moody's by the end of this year that is threatened to the turned off to a degree. $37 billion in benefits set to xpooir so expire soon. real money at a time when every penny counts and so few americans have access to the most basic of necessities. and the mega panel returns, and jonathan, this seems a simple situation. you have a ton of people who don't have jobs. >> right. >> 20% of the country, got no jobs. or don't have the job they want or whatever it is. then a long list of problems. you got whether it's infrastructure crumbling, the health ca health care system screwed up. a lot of problem, a lot of
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people without jobs and huge piles of money that are trapped inside the banking system, offshore, inside of the tax code all this nonsense. and all we got to do is get the money with the people to solve the problem and we don't seem to be able to do that. confusing. >> well, it confuses me, too, and has confused me from the very begin wlg i learned from you and from your show that companies and banks are sitting on all of this capital and not using it. not using it to hire people. not using it to expand inventory. not using it to help gin up the economy. it's unfortunate president obama had to go on tv and state the obvious. the economic recovery is taking a lot longer than anyone anticipated. with the administration, both the president and folks on capitol hill talking about the president bush on through to president obama when they put the $2 out of every, i can't
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remember the statistic. >> 2 out of 10. >> in americans' pockets, i'm almost certain he thought this was going to be a temporary measure. in the sense that american jobs and the economy would come back bigger and stronger than in 200. unfortunately, as we just saw on friday with unemployment going up to 9.2% that's just not happening. >> because the incentive is for money to leave america. if you have money and you want to make money with nor money, tell you now, get out of here. whether to south america to australia, to china. we have no structure. our trade relationships totally rigged. china taxes 25%. we tax at 2.5%. all this goes to the government's dysfunction. you can't have money coming into the situation when the incentive is to take the money out of the situation. >> absolutely. that's really a good point and the other thing as we've been talking about, the deficit for a year, instead of talking about jobs. the administration keeps hoping things will get better. what your friend calls a
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confidence fairy magically believing things will get better when it's clear we need a jolt, programs and new ideas to boost the economy. >> we need restructured. >> absolutely. >> i saw $2 out of $10 coming from the government, that must be for ordinary american. the multi-nationals, probably $5 out of $10 comes from the government. now, you know -- by way of tax incentives and direct payment. so when you look at money sitting on the sidelines it's people saying, all right. today obama went after energy. tomorrow maybe he'll go after exports. the next day after whatever. as long as government policy, politicians, that is, are picking winners and losers, businessmen aren't looking for what's promising. what are people going to want? businessmen are looking for, what's the next thing to get a subsidy. so i don't buy into the argument. >> what's the best yield offshore based on the screwed up tax bill. >> it's already -- >> there's also been the government, that if we just got government out of the way then
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things would be okay. >> i don't agree. >> it's as false as the other -- >> i totally agree with that. and that's why i get frustrated with republicans and democrats. i'm locked out by nimrod choices when clearly there is a much more interesting way to create, and money that flows towards problems, when the money flows towards the problem, do thing as opposesed to the nonsense. go ahead, jonathan. >> the question i want to ask you all, there's a lot of talk sitting around the table many times. the president should be focusing on jobs, should be focusing on job creation. be creating jobs. well, can someone tell me, truthfully, how much power does the president of the united states have to actually create jobs? the problem is that he jumped in -- >> he jumped in and said with his stimulus that he was going to create jobs. in other words, he was the magic president who controlled the economy. and we were saying, we conservatives were saying, look,
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you don't get to control the economy. >> right. >> and so he doesn't have the power to create jobs. he has unfairly bearing the blame for this high unemployment -- >> so conservatives say -- >> go ahead. >> and then let me answer your question. >> and reich tweeted a jobs plan. washington can figure out -- >> quickly to answer your question from my perspective, i don't think you can create jobs, because as long as money is not coming in. in other words, i look at the beginning. if money's leaving your house, your job, your country, your state, it's going to be very hard to create anything. we have two things in this country that fundamentally are designed to take capital, to take money, harvest money, whether through the 401(k)s throughs trade, our trade policy and our banking system. our banking system is not designed to profit by investing in our country and our trade system is not designed to bring capital into our country, and i believe that the president is going to have a significant impact on reforming trade policy
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and engaging in a significant debate on the capital markets in general that would create more money coming in and less money coming out, but the money going out is so damn profitable for the caterpillars, for the apple computer, for the companies that are long been chinese slave labor, long the chinese development, that there's no way the president wants to alienate them going back to the bernie sanders conversation. i would argue the president just by engaging the trade relationship could do a tremendous amount to create jobs just by ending the chinese currency ring and the tariffs. we'll take a break. peter, great to see you guys. normally when i come back from vacation at this point i'm in a state of total rage. realize how screwed up everything is and honestly i feel pretty good about it. >> i'm fired up. >> but i don't feel so upset about everything, jonathan. because you guys -- it's nice to see you guys. >> i'm great. >> i'm happy about that.
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>> jonathan, see you soon. and always a pleasure. thank you, guys. coming up, moving one step closer to a life light the jetsons. just one phillips' colon health probiotic cap a day helps defends against occasional constipation, diarrhea, gas and bloating. with three strains of good bacteria to help balance your colon. you had me at "probiotic." [ female announcer ] phillips' colon health. say i'm missing england. i type in e-n-g... and he gives me a variety of options.
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mean significantly higher, then you're going to need one of these. at a red light, you need to get away, spread your wings and take off with this turkey. good news for those of us dreaming of owning a flying car, not officially approved for driving on highways and roadways, an exception for this because of the excessive wait that comes as a result of the fact it has wings. the decision you'll appreciate is you move blissfully over rush hour traffic and perfect for the shutdown in california. coming up, winning the war on terror. so they tell us. but exactly how are we fighting and exactly what are we winning? the former cia interrogator out with a controversial new book is our guest, next. not whitish, not eggshell, not ecru... whatever that is. white. that's my tide. what's yours?
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countries. so we've got to continue the job of going after them. >> panetta also addressing concerns about iranian weapons making it into the hands of iraq's shiite militias, a tremendous concern, he says. meantime in afghanistan over the weekend, the defense secretary claiming u.s. forces are with reach of breaking al qaeda. we're almost there. granted, there's only about two dozen of them, but we're almost ready to break them. and as we learned al qaeda, of course, not real threat. a new book raises questions about the methods we use to fight the war on terror in general. the author "glen carl, a former spy at the cia. the book called "the interrogator" an education. portions of the book redactsed by the central intelligence agency and mr. carl, it's a pleasure to meet you electronically. why did you write this book and what are you loping to achieve? >> thank you very much. i wrote it for two reasons.
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patriotic and personal ones. i was proud to serve my country for my career for 23 years. i think we're all proud of our country and we want our country to live up to the ideals that we believe it embodies and i took an oath to serve. i also am one of only ones firsthand experience in the interrogation policies used since 9/11 and wrote it for personal reasons, too, because my experience, i think, is representative of how all americans would feel if they were involved in what i was involved in. which is very disturbing, and i think actually betrayed the values that we are seeking to protect. >> specifically, what are you referring to? >> well, interrogation's and important thing to do obviously when you capture somebody and obtaining intelligence to save lives and to disrupt or take down al qaeda. we all want to do that and certainly now want to do that. the agency didn't have its
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interrogation when 9/11 occurred and certainly i didn't. i was an operations officer, but when i was brought in to do this i founded skills required are the same ones that are those of convincing someone to provide secrets to the united states and they are developing human rapport, not using coercive measures. >> and in the book do you argue that the development of rapport and trust is a far more valuable means of ex-tracksing information than coercion of some kind? >> absolutely. absolutely. i was told at the beginning of the operation of the interrogation i led for several months of a fellow that i would do whatever it took to get it's man to talk did i understand, and i does. the theory is that psychologically dislocating a detainee will make him more likely to share or to give up information. you do that by using physical or psychological measures.
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you disorient the person and more or less separate him from himself by changing the temperature and time and diet and so on. i found, i refused to use any physical measure from the get-go and found quickly the psychological measures aren't effective either, as well as being wrong. the way to do it correctly is to develop a human rapport. that's what all conversation and all exchanges based on. the same job i did as an operations officer. >> is your ultimate assertion, to not forget your original story, not that it's not incredibly compelling, the entire agency of central intelligence has been misguided by using coercive as opposed to rapport and trust building? >> two points. my story, i believe it's a compelling one and important one for me as i lived through it but it's really representative of the larger issue that you touch
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on, which is not just what the cia did but what the entire united states did in response to the attacks of 9/11. what was the war on tear jer what was the nature of our adversary, what were the methods used how effective and how acceptable to american values? and i found to my distress that the methods we used for a time undermine the values that i took an oath to preserve. >> and to the best of your knowledge today how big is the gap between the sorts of values that you and i and most in this country describe as a barbecue or a picnic and the reality? >> well, when some of these measures in the programs became public around 2005, many were suspended. that was not a voluntary decision, it was a response to a scandal, actually, at that time. when president obama took office he immediately repudiated most of them, but i believe they've
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been suspended not formally stopped. we just recently heard general petraeus and others say in some instances possibly measures beyond those of the geneva convention would be called for. and i think this is wrong. but more importantly than what happens out of sight to most americans, i think, is what has all of this done? what do the secret programs do to us as a society? and there is a poll that showed that americans under 35, a majority now support in some instances torture. i find this appalling. it's not an american value. >> beyond the acceptance that you describe of younger americans, the practice of torture, how -- can you evaluate america's relationship with the world in the context of it's behavior of the past ten years? >> well, of course. the jae conventigeneva conventi something we subject ourselves to at a disadvantage.
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they were actually written by eleanor roosevelt or represented the united states in the convention, the conference that wrote them. they embody american values. our bill of rights. we have i think 1 million 500,000 men and women in uniform, and thousands upon thousands of security officers and intelligence officers around the world and american citizens around the world. these values and obligations protect us. we don't want our soldiers to be subjected to things that exceed the geneva convention either. so only by embodying the value wes subscribe to can we expect possibly that in will in fact happen. >> those argue that our behavior has alienated many on this planet. i don't mean just our sbir gatien tactics one in a stack of responses post-9/11. what is your view on the degree we have alienated huge factions around the world that may have been more sympathetic to a
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gentleman like yourself 10 or 15 years ago seeking to build rapport? >> well, i don't know if cia officers were ever be very well liked overseas if they're known, but we have done ourselves significant amount of harm and harmed our own interests. i do not say we simply need to be nice. not at all. america should promote and defend, act in its own self-interests. that's what our mission is. to serve american interests, and often that will not make other countries happy. but that's okay. what is not okay is that we act in ways that betray our values. that creates problems for us we can't avoid, and that we don't need to do. we can embody these values and proechlt our own interests at the same time. >> quickly, do you think the reason we revert to some of the really basic and violent techniques a -- how much is triggered simply by fear?
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on our own part when you're really afraid you toned lash out like this. no? >> yes. i think there's a lot of that to explain what happened. 9/11 was terrible. we were all angry. i was angry like everybody else. i wanted to be part of the hunt for osama bin laden and al qaeda. every officer in the cya did, of course. but we did react, i think vvisc without thinking about our own experience in how to interrogate somebody. we should have listened to the fbi which does know how to do this and sterling, frankly, from the beginning in this. they refused to have any involvement in enhanced interrogation techniques knowing they don't work and betray our values. that's what we should have done. >> well, it's never too late. the only thing that exists is infinite potential anyway, mr. carle. we're here today and we'll see what happens. glenn carle. the book "the interrogator in
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education" congratulations on a brave effort on your part to publish such a document of your own experience and also your perspective. thank you for that. coming up here on "hardball," deadlocked on the debt. you know that. chris asking whether republicans even want to do a deal at all. first, betty ford and her passing. an opportunity to look at the role of a first lady of america. on a track that simulates the world's toughest roads. ♪ [ tires screeching ] ♪ if it can survive this drive... ♪ it can survive yours. the nissan altima. innovation that lasts. innovation for all. ♪
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we're back with a daily rant. it's monday meaning it's keli and a yellow subtly dressed
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keli. >> hey, dylan. first lady betty ford was once seen at a political liability but her marriage to gerald ford genre airted the least amount of publicity as possible to avoid his run for congress because she was a divorced dancer. she was widely recognized it's a one of the country's most well-liked first ladies. makes the fact still perceived as a political liability today allal more disappointing. despite how much america evolved in variety of ways including electing a black president, electing an imperfect first lady. when indiana governor mitch daniel, the harsh reality implied by the decision was transparent. despite the funny language he eyesed to convey it to the media. the harsh reality, what comes with a presidential run,
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particularly his wife. governor daniels saying of their non-traditional love story, if you love happy endings you'll love our story. americans do love comeback stories particularly for men. when it comes to women occupying the role of first lady of the united states they want something else. the feminine ideal that was from 100 years ago. supposed to be attractive, not sexy. smart and articulate, not pin opinionated or ambitious. think lk hillary clinton's effort to push health reform in her husband's first term. even michelle obama went a first lady and sweater sets, transformed from a woman who looked like she could be comm d commander in chief with a woman with a much higher rating. mom in chief. according to reports, even her eyebrows were changed to make her appear friendlier, softer,
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more first lady like. and her husband's president sayser resigned, betty ford was spared the scrutiny preventing him from making it to the white house. lucky for her and for us her add voe cases on behalf of breast cancer awareness and substance abuse include a center that bears letter name saved count lds lives and an image for the free spirit she brought to the white house allegedly included darchsing on her husband's desk in the oval office. here's hoping one day soon the free spirit betty ford shows will still be allowed to live in other first ladies who won't have to pretend they're someone they're not so their husband has a chance of becoming commander in chief i. understand what you're saying. is not the entire point of becoming the president and the first lady, they're all pretending to be someone they're not. clearly, barack obama is pretending to someone he's not. clearly george bush was presenting to be something he wasn't. like -- god help


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